Curse

Bryant Again · Dec 02, 2008, 09:20 AM // 09:20

When there's no need for improvement, I lost most if not all of my interest in a game. If I reached the skill threshold in Guild Wars halfway through Proph I wouldn't be here. If all I needed to win at everything in Guild Wars was given to me in Kryta I wouldn't even have been playing close to this long.

Sure, I could learn everything else in the game, improve my stats, my builds, etc. but what's the point? What use is there in using that knowledge and skill when it's not necessary? There's no point in gimping myself if I know there isn't another challenge on it's way to test me.

That's generally why a few - not a lot, since knowledgable gamers are far and few - are so upset with what's happened. It's essentially akin to adding a BFG9000 in the 4th level of Doom. It's taking

Granted I respect the casual gamer, and so does a lot of other developers. That's why there's I'm Too Young To Die, Easy mode, Casual settings - in Guild Wars, Normal mode. It's why I agree with making the Normal modes of many of the elite areas a bit easier while keeping the Hard modes untouched. The only problem is that many additions made to the game - PvE skills, consumables, etc. - can be used in both settings, dumbing down both environments.

In summation: it's good when you provide easier methods of access, not in making the harder paths easier...get my drift? Better prepare players for the challenges in the tough areas, don't eliminate the need to learn.

And if they don't want to improve...that's fine. Enjoy Casual mode.

maraxusofk · Dec 02, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I think the rule of thumb should have been if developers could not complete an area with an H&H team or random pug team then nerf it until they themselves can. That would have given any player a viable shot at seeing and completing all the games content.

Instead what they have done is created a wall in which most can not pass and not through lack of skill either. Thus the majority of the player base will never see all the games content. Whats the point in wasting time, effort and man power developing content most will never enjoy?

lol really? this game is hard? u probably should stick to tic tack toe or something. this game was meant to be a cooperative mmo from the beginning. developers testing content wit h+h or pugs with down syndrome is not a good idea.

heres some helpful hints to make this game less hard. (warning, it includes common sense)

-if ur taking dmg, find a way to take less. tanking, selective aggroing, pre protting, etc.

-kill faster. dont use crap builds. learn to use conditions/degen/DPS

Shasgaliel · Dec 02, 2008, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Granted I respect the casual gamer, and so does a lot of other developers. That's why there's I'm Too Young To Die, Easy mode, Casual settings - in Guild Wars, Normal mode. It's why I agree with making the Normal modes of many of the elite areas a bit easier while keeping the Hard modes untouched. The only problem is that many additions made to the game - PvE skills, consumables, etc. - can be used in both settings, dumbing down both environments.

In summation: it's good when you provide easier methods of access, not in making the harder paths easier...get my drift? Better prepare players for the challenges in the tough areas, don't eliminate the need to learn.

If it was done this way it would have been brilliant. So many pointless threads would have been avoided. If they make consumables and pve skills usable in NM only that would be the best update ever... Good players would still have some challenge on HM and casual players would be still able to enjoy content on NM.

Longasc · Dec 02, 2008, 10:08 AM // 10:08

There is a constant trend to make games accessible for everyone.
See Wrath of the Lich King and the changes to classes in WoW Patch 3.0.x.

It is very similar to EOTN, even worse: The whole world turned easy and casual mode.

And there you have the answer, what Bryant said already: You do not need to improve if there is absolutely no need to improve.

Cobalt already pointed out, no need to develop content that only 1-5% of the players will see... but we now have the other extreme: The whole game gets silly and boring for anyone with half a brain, as it got dumbed down to the extreme.

Master Knightfall · Dec 02, 2008, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Instead what they have done is created a wall in which most can not pass and not through lack of skill either.

If you cannot pass a wall in GW that many others have passed then it is a lack of skill and knowledge is the reason why. You strike me as the kind if you can't get through an area in the first try then it is impossible to do it. I see a lot of that on Guru the crying because I can't do it first try. There's been areas I had to try several times before completing, but, persistance pays off and I just don't know why so many are in a hurry to reach the finish when there's nothing left to do but grind and farm afterwards or play up a jillion other characters. Too much of a rush these days I see in most people. The fast food generation is alive and well. I hope GW2 is much longer and slower paced than GW1 is because it's over way to fast and then boredom kicks in quite quickly since farming and grinding are really the only two things left unless you like brainless pvp.

Quote:

If it was done this way it would have been brilliant. So many pointless threads would have been avoided. If they make consumables and pve skills usable in NM only that would be the best update ever... Good players would still have some challenge on HM and casual players would be still able to enjoy content on NM.

Problem there is the loot content of normal mode isn't like the loot content of HM, you get a lot of crappy drops in normal mode compared to HM and since casuals want everything they also want to be able to easily play in HM (consumables help) and get the same rewards as everyone else in the same amout of time. Time always plays the major factor and play in this game and every other game and because casual players don't have the kind of time as 24/7 powergamers the developers are now bringing those two groups closer together with easier areas which allows the powergamers to get more, but, it also allows the casual players to get their lions share as well. You'll never please everyone in this process. Make it too hard the casuals will scream, make it too easy the powergamers will scream. The content portion is 2nd to power and status within these games. Anyone who thinks the content is #1 is just fooling themselves.

Shasgaliel · Dec 02, 2008, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Problem there is the loot content of normal mode isn't like the loot content of HM, you get a lot of crappy drops in normal mode compared to HM and since casuals want everything they also want to be able to easily play in HM (consumables help) and get the same rewards as everyone else in the same amout of time. Time always plays the major factor and play in this game and every other game and because casual players don't have the kind of time as 24/7 powergamers the developers are now bringing those two groups closer together with easier areas which allows the powergamers to get more, but, it also allows the casual players to get their lions share as well. You'll never please everyone in this process. Make it too hard the casuals will scream, make it too easy the powergamers will scream. The content portion is 2nd to power and status within these games. Anyone who thinks the content is #1 is just fooling themselves.

Actually content argument was quite common. Just have a look at the threads. I have not seen complains about no access to drops but no access to the game content. This was also a main argument against nerfing ursan. Cause it provided easy access to DOA. Of course people will complain if you remove them easy button but some buttons really need to be removed.

I can imagine that removing pve skills and cons from HM will make many farmers complain but farming on HM solo is possible without both of them. Just requires more skill and that should be the point of HM no?

On the other hand who cares about Urgoz or Deep drops? People go there for fun or to get statue in HOM. Since you cannot take henchmen there you are forced to play with other players. If you are not in big guild/alliance you need to join Pug which tend to be hmmm unsuccessful and its rare in those two places. Lack of possibility to do something in a team not something being hard is the wall for many people out there. So this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

If you cannot pass a wall in GW that many others have passed then it is a lack of skill and knowledge

is not true. I have not seen people able to finish deep with just their 3 heroes even on NM.

Elite missions for many guilds are too easy on HM and I am not sure HM was designed for farming purposes. It is just too easy that is why casual gamers can farm it. There is a need for a trade off there but so far the end game content is too easy for organized groups on HM and too hard on NM for newbies. In my opinion both mods (HM NM) should be revised separately not shifted together with every new skill buff/nerf all the time.

Fril Estelin · Dec 02, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Granted I respect the casual gamer, and so does a lot of other developers.

Quote:

And if they don't want to improve...that's fine. Enjoy Casual mode.

I think your post was correct, but I have to point out a fundamental mistake you made: you're not casual because you don't want to improve, sometimes you simply do not have the time. I'm not stupid or noob, but at a certain point during my GW life I realised that improving would take time that I will not invest in a game, because my job and my family are much more important. I even forced myself many times not to start a vanquish, pug an elite area, go AB or start to learn seriously PvP because I think I may have to go afk at any moment (that's what babies and new full-time academic jobs do to your life), thus greatly dimishing the experience of other players. There are casual players that want to improve but can't for many reasons. I think in the end it's about how you set your priorities, but I wish there was more respect for that aspect of "casualness" (which IMHO should not be confused with lazyness or inability to improve).

DreamWind · Dec 02, 2008, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I think your post was correct, but I have to point out a fundamental mistake you made: you're not casual because you don't want to improve, sometimes you simply do not have the time. I'm not stupid or noob, but at a certain point during my GW life I realised that improving would take time that I will not invest in a game, because my job and my family are much more important. I even forced myself many times not to start a vanquish, pug an elite area, go AB or start to learn seriously PvP because I think I may have to go afk at any moment (that's what babies and new full-time academic jobs do to your life), thus greatly dimishing the experience of other players. There are casual players that want to improve but can't for many reasons. I think in the end it's about how you set your priorities, but I wish there was more respect for that aspect of "casualness" (which IMHO should not be confused with lazyness or inability to improve).

Personally I consider a casual player a player who doesn't really care whether they get better or not. I consider a casual someone who picks up a game and plays it for fun and giggles or other reasons. Hardcores are generally the ones playing to "get better".

That being said...I have been thinking about my previous posts in this thread and realized that perhaps it isn't that players have gotten better or worse as a whole...but that the GAME as a whole has gotten easier thus making ALL comparisons impossible. I think both PvE AND PvP have gotten easier over time due to stupid amounts of inbalance riddled throughout. This inbalance has really made it much more difficult to determine who is good and who is bad and has caused a general grouping of the skill level of many players. Just a thought I had.

Master Knightfall · Dec 02, 2008, 12:12 PM // 12:12

The ultimate fact is there are more casual players than powergamers or 24/7 players. Thus imho for a developer and company to be successful they 'must' cater to the casual player so they get more sales. Thus, this means opening up elite areas for them to get to and play in in a normal casual player amount of time. Also it means lower cap levels so the casual player doesn't feel like he's playing in a grind mode situation and gets discouraged because of normal life activities taking up more of their time and thus not buying the game or the extended chapters an expansions.
Problem is you have the hardcore (the handful of them who are very vocal on forums like this Bryant and Avarre etc.) who make it seem the game is a failure because it doesn't cater to their wants and purposes. They want to candyland the casual players to normal mode and have all the hard mode and elite areas to themselves for the content and imho the loot and value aspect of them. They want a separation of players based on time and friendships and socalled skill (I still haven't seen this socalled skill in this game when all you have to do is press 1 2 3 there's no real tactics to this game other than running around in a circle like a chicken with its head cut off like monks and rangers do all the time) and I don't agree with this. One shouldn't have to make a ton of casual aquaintances or depend on friends to be able to play these games and get to the quality areas and loot. I am definitely more pro-solo and/or being able to go anywhere and everywhere and complete everything with heroes/henchies. I can for 99% of the game, but, the elite areas are cutoff to me because of allowing elitism on Anets part and forcing players to group with one another and people you don't know or forced friendships etc. etc.
I personally believe 'all' areas of the game should be open to every type of player and the main purpose of the developer is to make it so where there is challenge to both and "equal" amounts of loot and rewards not based on just time played, but, just playing in those areas alone. I feel there should be quality drops at the end of every major mission and every player gets something. Much like getting a zashien key for 5k balthazar points, even in normal mode. In fact that would be a nice drop for anyone ..a zashien key as that gives everyone basically the same equal chance of getting something good or bad out of that chest and since it's in another place people won't have bad feelings cause someone got the sword of everlasting life and they got that flame brew haha. Most people don't go in a team to do zashien chest collections, I know I don't I go by myself.
Anyways though Anet stills sees fit to provide a separation of players at least in the elite areas of the game. I think for casuals sake though there shouldn't be that separation and something should be done for the solo players as well who want to play the elite content without having to group with idiots or make ingame friends. I really don't play these games to socialize I play them for the content, story and loot to make my character more powerful and neat looking. I know some will say why don't you play WOW or an offline game or this or that. I say because I want to play this content and this story and I want the same thing I get from any other rpg a storyline and neat stuff to find and use.

Fril Estelin · Dec 02, 2008, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Personally I consider a casual player a player who doesn't really care whether they get better or not. I consider a casual someone who picks up a game and plays it for fun and giggles or other reasons. Hardcores are generally the ones playing to "get better".

This is actually one of the four main definitions of casual (so we're both right):
http://www.askoxford.com
casual adjective 1 relaxed and unconcerned. 2 showing insufficient care or forethought: a casual remark. 3 not regular or firmly established; occasional or temporary: casual jobs. 4 happening by chance; accidental

And we all the game for fun, it's simply that we see "fun" in a very different way. (side-note: I had the same problem when trying to explain "fun" Maths, my students wouldn't find it fun; see this example by Dilbert

) As I said many times, gamers push the boundaries between fun and work/profit, in particular in MMOs where there's such a player diversity. (games no longer for kids only)

DreamWind · Dec 02, 2008, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Problem is you have the hardcore who make it seem the game is a failure because it doesn't cater to their wants and purposes. They want to candyland the casual players to normal mode and have all the hard mode and elite areas to themselves for the content and imho the loot and value aspect of them.

I need to get something out of the way. Guild Wars has been a commercial success, and that is great, but to me personally (and I'm sure for many others) it has been a failure in that it did not live up to its potential both inherent and advertised.

Remember when the big selling point of the game was skill>time? 3 1/2 years ago almost nobody was saying make all areas of the game easier so everybody can do them. Nowadays the fact that the opinion even exists that every player should have a right of passage to do anything they damn well please just shows you how much this game and its culture has changed. Skill>time has went out the window due to the dumbing down of this game, and some people realize this.

Master Knightfall · Dec 02, 2008, 12:35 PM // 12:35

3. would be the actual definition for mmorpgs or this type of gaming imho. Because casual players are concerned about the game and its destination and how it progresses. They are concerned if they will be able to play all the content. I think these can all be parts of a casual player, but, I feel #3 is the main one based on time since that seems to be the number one thing I read from casual players they don't have time to grind or time to build up a character to high levels. So time is the most important issues to casual gamers in these types of games.

Quote:

Skill>time has went out the window due to the dumbing down of this game, and some people realize this.

Nope skill > time didn't go out of the window for those reasons it went out the window because the majority of the community demanded it. Anet doesn't go around changing things to piss the majority off. On the contrary they change things to keep the majority happy and playing so they will buy GW2. It's the miniscule minority that think the game sold because of skill > time. The game sold because it has no monthly fee and is an online mmorpglike game. I certainly didn't buy it because of skill > time. I could have cared less about that. I bought into it because of no monthly fee first and foremost. Then as time went on I too was one of those on the bandwagon for "change" and more to do besides farm and repeat the same content over and over for nothing. Anet oblidged me and the majority of others. Sorry you don't fit in anymore...perhaps you should go play WOW?

DreamWind · Dec 02, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Nope skill > time didn't go out of the window for those reasons it went out the window because the majority of the community demanded it. Anet doesn't go around changing things to piss the majority off. On the contrary they change things to keep the majority happy and playing so they will buy GW2. It's the miniscule minority that think the game sold because of skill > time. The game sold because it has no monthly fee and is an online mmorpglike game. I certainly didn't buy it because of skill > time. I could have cared less about that. I bought into it because of no monthly fee first and foremost. Then as time went on I too was one of those on the bandwagon for "change" and more to do besides farm and repeat the same content over and over for nothing. Anet oblidged me and the majority of others. Sorry you don't fit in anymore...perhaps you should go play WOW?

This is the kind of post that ticks me off. Why don't YOU go play WOW as that seems to be the type of game you would like. Perhaps the monthly fee is the only thing keeping you back? You only bought Guild Wars because of no monthly fees, not for the actual quality of the game. I paid for Guild Wars to get what was advertised...a QUALITY SKILL>TIME GAME. I didn't pay to have people whine to dumb the game down so it is no longer what is advertised.

upier · Dec 02, 2008, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When there's no need for improvement, I lost most if not all of my interest in a game. If I reached the skill threshold in Guild Wars halfway through Proph I wouldn't be here. If all I needed to win at everything in Guild Wars was given to me in Kryta I wouldn't even have been playing close to this long.

Sure, I could learn everything else in the game, improve my stats, my builds, etc. but what's the point? What use is there in using that knowledge and skill when it's not necessary? There's no point in gimping myself if I know there isn't another challenge on it's way to test me.

That's generally why a few - not a lot, since knowledgable gamers are far and few - are so upset with what's happened. It's essentially akin to adding a BFG9000 in the 4th level of Doom. It's taking

Granted I respect the casual gamer, and so does a lot of other developers. That's why there's I'm Too Young To Die, Easy mode, Casual settings - in Guild Wars, Normal mode. It's why I agree with making the Normal modes of many of the elite areas a bit easier while keeping the Hard modes untouched. The only problem is that many additions made to the game - PvE skills, consumables, etc. - can be used in both settings, dumbing down both environments.

In summation: it's good when you provide easier methods of access, not in making the harder paths easier...get my drift? Better prepare players for the challenges in the tough areas, don't eliminate the need to learn.

And if they don't want to improve...that's fine. Enjoy Casual mode.

There is no way in hell that HM can not be casual. Quite simply because GW had a HM when the first game was released - and we refused to enter it.
You want to play the real HM in GW?
Play PvP.

Once we refused to move onto PvP - we agreed that there will come a time when we'll outgrow the game. That of course doesn't negate the mistakes that they make regarding PvE - but those mistakes just brought the end closer rather then create it.

Fril Estelin · Dec 02, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

Problem is you have the hardcore (the handful of them who are very vocal on forums like this Bryant and Avarre etc.) who make it seem the game is a failure because it doesn't cater to their wants and purposes. They want to candyland the casual players to normal mode and have all the hard mode and elite areas to themselves for the content and imho the loot and value aspect of them.

This is very unfair to these great Guru-ers that spend time sharing their experience (not always in the best way, but who wants to cast them a stone?). They never wanted that beyond wanting meaning behind the different "levels" of the game. Of course casual players (like me) will be out of the equation due to their casualness, but then everything you'd do in GW1 would have some meaning instead of just flat rewards for almost everything ("I completed The Deep" ... using lots of consumables and PvE skills!).

And since I'm now arguing for the "other side" (hint: there's not really any side...), skill does clearly exist in GW. Try observer mode on the top games, watch the GWFC matches (it's a shame they're not in good quality, I think I still have them on DVD). I may complain on the attitude of some players, but I do not doubt their skills. The ultimate proof being consistently owned in PvP (learn to strafe, dodge, run, interrupt. split, coordinate, etc.). It does not mean that you can't find skill among PvErs or even casual players, neither that skilled player should have more say into how the game should be, except that they generally have good insight and comments (except when they're ranting).

Quote:

I personally believe 'all' areas of the game should be open to every type of player and the main purpose of the developer is to make it so where there is challenge to both and "equal" amounts of loot and rewards not based on just time played, but, just playing in those areas alone.

They're all "open", not just solo-able. This is the nature of MMOs. Although like many I'd have trouble doing lots of stuff due to inactive guild (it's my own fault, if I want I can change guild), when I do this stuff it'll have more meaning. I remember my first FoW, which we completed despite a tank d/c'ing, it's because they're harder that they're valued. Of course, it's ultimately about the right balance which must be like a nightmare for Anet, given how most people want to have it their ways.

Quote:

I think for casuals sake though there shouldn't be that separation and something should be done for the solo players as well who want to play the elite content without having to group with idiots or make ingame friends.

I'm a solo-player (always happy to pug) and want to do the elite. But I do not want Anet to remove the emotional value that I could get from completing these elite areas, if one day I do it. That's what "skilled" player want, people to improve a little bit, instead of difficulty levels to get down a little bit (except in NM).

Quote:

I really don't play these games to socialize I play them for the content

Playing in group is surely not socialising, not anymore than playing collective sport games. Team spirit, collaboration, the group being more than the sum of its parts, discovering new stuff and news lines of play from other people. That's what it's about (well, in theory).

Quote:

story and loot to make my character more powerful and neat looking.

Drops from DoA, Deep or anywhere else won't make you one tiny bit more powerful. Same stats, all gold weapons with cool stats, inscription and mods to make them perfect. On the appearance of things, it's once more about value. Would FoW armor be so valuable if anyone could have it after 30h of play? It's like in real life, you can't go into a designer shop and ask them to lower their price, you'd have to buy somewhere else or get more cash.

(I can't believe that I've turned to the dark side! ... /end of sarcasm)

I know some will say why don't you play WOW or an offline game or this or that. I say because I want to play this content and this story and I want the same thing I get from any other rpg a storyline and neat stuff to find and use.[/QUOTE]